KATHLEEN BURGESS (she/they) is an award-winning Tkaronto-based director passionate about exploring the dimensions of friendship, play, and queerness through a surreal lens.
Typically in independent filmmaking, there's a director who is usually the writer, but this film has a writer and a director. Where did you meet and what made you decide to work together?
KATHLEEN: Marie and I met in our undergraduate program at TMU in media production. We met in a documentary filmmaking class in our third year, and worked on that project together. And it just like all started from there, our friendship as well. We had our thesis film project coming up, and I remember wondering who I am going to work with. We had just started to talk about inspirations and themes we liked, and it came up like an actual question, do you want to work together?
It was a strong intuition. We had all of these conversations about our potential thesis film. After this brainstorm, I felt so inspired, that’s how I knew we'd definitely make something together.
MARIA BARR: Like Kathleen said, we met doing a documentary. We shot it literally the week before lockdown started. We did the whole post-production process over Zoom in March and April of 2020. So it was a memorable start to a working relationship and also to a friendship. And I think it really bonded us. Then when Kat reached out, probably in the fall of 2020, about working on something together, the idea of making a coming of age came really naturally to both of us. It was never a question of what our roles would be. Kat was really interested in directing, and that wasn't something that I was personally ready for or interested in. But I've always loved to write and I like to edit as well. It was really like a creative partnership as co-creators. It felt equal from the start, and I felt we were in the roles that made the most sense for us.
What led you to film school?
KATHLEEN: Applying for media production programs was like a last minute thing. But I grew up figure skating, so I was always very into performance. I realized, after I quit, I really missed that creative aspect. I did lots of drama and photography in high school, and I never really put it together. I was never in any film classes. But the creative aspect and the team aspect of filmmaking is what I really loved. I like bringing something together that's literally impossible to do by yourself. That's what made me very excited to go to that school.
MARIA: For me, I like that the program we went to is not technically a film school, it's a media production program. I didn't even really realize that I wanted to specifically work in film or television. But I knew I wanted to do something creative, for sure. When I was in high school, I did a really cool summer program at Simon Fraser University Film School. Over the course of either two weeks or three weeks, you make a short film. I did that for three summers. I made a documentary and then two little narrative shorts, which was my first step into filmmaking. I really loved those programs. Looking back, I didn't even realize how much they meant to me. So I knew I wanted to do something in that world. Once I got to maybe the middle of my degree is when I realized screenwriting is where I really wanted to focus. It was gradual. Even now, who knows where I'll end up? I don't know if I'll do film forever. Maybe I'll do something else, as long as it's like something fun and creative.
Still from Dandelion Green
What were some of the filmmakers that inspired you?
KATHLEEN: There are so many. Especially in the last couple of years, as you get more into film, you just get more and more inspired by people in your direct community. But to name a few, Jasmin Mozaffari is one. She did the film program at TMU, but I discovered her as we were developing Dandelion Green. I watched her feature, Firecrackers, and something about it, how it felt so raw and real and emotional. It's like when you watch a film, you're like, damn, I wish I made that. That’s the kind of reaction I had to it. Another director that I'm inspired by, who's from the States, is Olivia Peace who directed Tahara. They really have this experimental approach to filmmaking where they incorporate mixed media, animation, and they're not afraid to break the boundaries of it.
MARIA: Before I started university, I was very inspired by coming of age films, which I think is partly why we ended up making one for the thesis, to pay tribute to those big coming of age films that left such an impact on us.
In high school, I was a huge fan of Almost Famous. Submarine, which I rewatched last week for the first time since I was 15, expecting to feel differently about it but, this is still a really good film. Electric Children, directed by Rebecca Thomas. Coming of age films in general that have moments that feel big because they're teenagers. Definitely Greta Gerwig, Lady Bird was a big one for me. In terms of screenwriting, I'm a big fan of Emma Seligman, her dialogue.
Do you have any advice for emerging filmmakers who are just starting out, both from a director's perspective and from a writer's perspective?
MARIA: Watch as many movies as you possibly can of all different genres, even stuff that you don't think you're going to like. Building that reference library in your mind is really important as you're trying to establish your voice. For writing, getting your hands on actual scripts is nice. Learning technical standards, figuring out how to write a script. And also connecting with your community, It cannot be understated that the indie film scene in Toronto is such a small world. It's really important to know who you're going to be working with and to have a good reputation, be a nice person and support your peers. That's really, really, really important is to be there for your community to show up and go to film screenings and stay for the Q&A and talk to the director after. Make stuff with your friends, in your backyard with like, on your phone, just make as much stuff as you can and make friends with people.
KATHLEEN: We are definitely still emerging, but from the process of making Dandelion Green, like Maria was saying, amazing friendships just came out of that film. We put that intention into it. From a directing perspective, really don't be afraid to lean into your style, even if you feel like it's not what's cool or trendy or unique. It's one of those things, you're most in-tune with yourself so you may not think it's original because you're always thinking of it, but people haven't seen it before. So make iterations of it. Even if it's something really small and it's not even like a short film. It could be a scene. Because once you bring that thing to life, it helps build your confidence. If you gatekeep your own ideas, it can get very frustrating.
I think a lot of times young people can think this is THE short film, and put it up on a big pedestal. But you have to remember that all the projects you make add up. That's something I'm trying to listen to.
Still from Dandelion Green
Dandelion Green was like a little delicate flower, but like, holy shit, what am I watching? What drew you to tell this story about a 17 year old who's on the cusp of aging out of the foster system? What initially inspired you to explore Kay's experience in particular?
MARIA: The idea for Dandelion Green came from a lot of different places. Originally, we wanted to tell a queer friendship story. We wanted to tell a friendship love story, and explore themes like platonic intimacy and chosen family through the lens of coming of age. We also were drawing on some of our own experience and growing up in tumultuous family situations, although neither of us were in the foster care system. When I started looking into the foster care system, what I found really interesting and really heartbreaking about the system is that when you age out of the system, you have no choice. It's a very harsh line of you're 17, you're a child and you have no control over your life, less than even the average kid who's not in the system. Then you turn 18 and you're basically on your own, the support for kids who have recently aged out of the foster care system in Ontario are pretty minimal. So you're forced to go from being a child to an adult in a moment. That was really interesting to me.
We watched a film, called Princess Cyd, about a teenage girl that has a tough family situation and goes to live with her aunt. And I thought it was interesting to explore the idea of staying in someone's house that is not your own. Who could you be if you were in a space that is not familiar to yourself, to what you're used to? We did a lot of research into the foster care system, watched a lot of documentaries, listened to a lot of podcasts, and we got in touch with StepStones for Youth, an organization in Toronto that helps foster kids. We talked to them and they worked as a consultant on the film. We also interviewed some people who were in the system and different foster parents to really try and get the perspective of different aspects of the people that engage with the foster care system. So that I think is where the idea mainly came from.
We were really trying to find moments of levity in a really tough situation. Trying to imagine two kids that were in the situation of being in the system, and one of them was about to age out. But by chance or by fate, they end up meeting each other at the perfect moment for what each of them needs and create a beautiful friendship.
KATHLEEN: My aunt was a foster parent for a while, so I remember when Maria brought up the idea, I knew we should talk to her. That was a really long interview and it really echoed with us. And even though I didn't grow up in foster care, I definitely grew up moving around a lot and always like packing all my stuff, going to like my different parents' houses. That sentiment when you're younger, of having to rush and go really quickly was something I related to.
The other root of it was this queer friendship that we really wanted to explore, that was somewhere between romantic and platonic. Around the time that we started talking, I was coming into my queerness and being more open with it – I was very closeted before. I feel like a lot of queer kids growing up experience that relationship and then didn't really know how to describe it, like that didn't happen, that didn't exist. Even though the issue that we wanted to go head on was this foster care experience and aging out, we also wanted that relationship of joy and happiness to drive the story and have that hopeful ending to really be a big part of it.
One of the moments that really stood out for me was like this sudden responsibility. I thought it was really fascinating when she turned 18 by the end of the film. I was so hurt by that idea that this child, who has never experienced stability, has to take on this like sense of stability. There was a moment where the social worker was said best of luck. I felt it was such a harsh farewell. What did you want to convey in that particular moment? What are the things that we don't know about children aging out of the system of foster care?
MARIA: Because neither Kat nor I have ever been in the system, we did want to make it as authentic as possible, which is why we had a sensitivity reader and did interviews. Something that we found really striking is that the support for foster kids who have aged out are not what you think they might be. They typically get an apartment and a monthly allowance, which I don't remember the exact time frame, but it doesn't last super long. And these kids are 18, they could still be in high school. Like I mentioned before, when you're a foster kid, you have much less control over your life than maybe the average kid would. The stark difference is even more visible. We really wanted to show this, the harsh reality of the foster care system with the ending. But we also wanted to have the hopeful silver lining of Olivia leaving all of these drawings that she had done, of the two of them together and the memories that they shared as a reminder that you're not alone, you'll find your community again. We wanted to keep it open ended.
A lot of people maybe don't know that in the foster care system indigenous kids are massively overrepresented. I wanted to make note of that as something really important to recognize. There's a lot of issues with the foster care system, which is why StepStones for Youth is a really great organization that I would encourage people to check out.
KATHLEEN: When we were writing Kay’s social worker, we wanted her to represent the very tough part of the foster care system in Ontario versus Amir, who was Olivia’s social worker. We gave him a kinder side. He's almost worn out by the system because he came into it really trying to make a difference. But then you get stuck because it's so flawed from the beginning. There's only so much you can do in it as well. We really want people to think, what are we doing to these kids?
Still from Dandelion Green
In the first scene with K, we're going over the rules and regulations of this new house. And Olivia, you're seeing her packing her bag and just walking out. Was that the contrast of these two worlds?
MARIA: We really wanted to show a contrast in two different experiences navigating the system with Kay and Olivia. They come from different backgrounds, Kay is supposed to be coming from a group home, and Olivia is coming from her mother's house. We wanted to show two different social workers, with different levels of empathy towards the kids. And we wanted to show different aspects in a short amount of time. In the first scene with Kay, that's a real thing that happens with foster kids, they have to be read their rights before they're moved to a new home. It’s there to protect them, but there's something really carceral about it. It's like a mantra that these kids learn because they've heard it so many times for those who are moved around a lot. So we wanted to show a contrast throughout the film between Kay and Olivia. In some ways, Olivia still has hope to be reunited with her mom, whereas Kay is just waiting until the day that they age out.
Yeah. So the question was that, at the beginning of, so I'm just following a when Maria said, she said that, you know, these two people, these two, Olivia and K, have sort of different lives in a sense that K being in foster care, she is her life is really controlled and it's contrary to kids who are coming from just regular home.
KATHLEEN: Later in the film, they’re about to collide. Showing that visually by cutting back and forth and overlapping their audio was a stylistic decision to tell the audience that they're about to meet.
I have noticed that you often are drawn to stories about women and femmes navigating the margins of society. What do you personally connect with characters like Kay and Olivia, and are there shared experiences and perspectives that you feel align with your own?
KATHLEEN: When Maria was writing this film, even though we came up with the story together, it felt like I could see a part of myself in it. Firstly, for Olivia's character, she's always keeping it all in and then using her drawings to let it out, almost like therapy. That's kind of what I relate to, a creative outlet. Growing up I would just let it all bubble in, and there were all these chaotic things happening in my family, and finding skating at the time or a drama was the way I learned to express myself. For Kay, their need to feel in control by being so independent is something that I think lots of women and femme people can relate to because they've been hurt so many times before, and it becomes very hard to trust. Showing how it hurts and you try to hide away and be like, “I can do this all by myself. I can be really tough.”
Our actors really brought their unique perspectives to their characters. I was so happy to be a part of this film because we had so many conversations on set and it would totally change my intentions. It was a very collaborative process.
MARIA: Similarly, I see myself in so many different aspects of this film. I particularly see myself when I was writing it because, at this point, we started working on this film in late 2020. So we were younger, we were still in university, in the midst of a pandemic, sometimes it feels like a lifetime ago. I was thinking a lot about connection and longing for connection and loneliness was a big thing in my life that year, as it was for a lot of people.
In terms of like the specifics of each character, I'm definitely more like Olivia, finding the silver lining. Finding an outlet to keep going is something that I feel like a lot of teenagers relate to. I don't necessarily relate all that much to Kay, but I feel that maybe that’s the part of me that I push down, like the part that feels untrustworthy and rundown sometimes.
Do you have anything coming up?
MARIA: We're working on a film currently. We were participants in a soft pitch competition back in June. So we have a film in development called Eleanor that is about an elderly lesbian who is, in her own way, aging out of being able to ride her motorcycle and be a part of the motorcycling community in small town Ontario. We’ve been calling it a little bit of a twist on the coming of age, the coming of age of an elderly lesbian who has been through some stuff and is super tough, but also is like going through all these new experiences that come with getting older. We’re hoping we will be able to make it next year.
Interview by Breakthroughs Board Member Sunita Miya-Muganzar
*This article has been edited for clarity